If you're on a swell from 3 miles out its yours.... Good Lord I wish it was that easy. Its not. If you think that logic applies well, try it at Kanaha or Ho'okipa. A pro or seasoned vet will jibe onto the wave you are on, sure as sh*t, and rip it to shreds. Leaving you there wondering why your outside claim on the wave was DENIED.
I guess there are several ways to claim a prize piece of terrain. My best bud was angry at me all day once because I apparently "denied" him the prize he had "claimed" by looking at it from 200 yards away ... as though I knew he was eyeballing it and I hadn't gotten to it first.
Now can you guys focus on ROW? Can any of you explain why an aerial cutback off the lip of the non-breaking section of an ocean wave deserves ROW but an aerial cutback off the lip of a non-breaking Columbia River (or Great Lakes, or Rio Grande) wave does not? It would help a lot of people understand why you guys demand such special privilege (and help me understand why fresh-water sailors do not deserve similar ROW).
Mike
i would say that on a wave, there is only a finite number of places you can catch that wave, and in addion, even lesser number of places you can catch the wave and get a decent enough section to do an arieal, where as in the gorge, there are many more places one could be doing "ariel cut backs" at a given launch spot. i know there are places where the swell is generally better than others, but there are MANY places at each "advanced" gorge sailing launch site that you could get these "arial cut backs"
given that there are more "decent swells that you can do arial cutbacks on" in the gorge, at a given "advanced sailors launch spot", than at a place such as wadell, one could conclude that the ROW rules would be MUCH more important in wadell than in the gorge.
ps. if you're good enough to do an arial cut back on a gorge swell, people know who you are and give you the space you need to do what you need to do. have fun at roosevelt.
Joined: 08 Aug 2005 Posts: 149 Location: San Francisco, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject:
Isobars wrote” there's no point in my responding to posts from people who refuse to read the post(s) they think they're refuting and refuse to consult an oceanography website, as I did, before guessing about terminology.”
Ok well let’s see, what oceanographic terms did I use…
Fetch: Summary
Wind fetch is defined as the unobstructed distance that wind can travel over water in a constant direction. Fetch is an important characteristic of open water because longer fetch can result in larger wind-generated waves. The larger waves, in turn, can increase shoreline erosion and sediment resuspension. Wind fetches in this model were calculated using scripts designed by David Finlayson,[1]
…this is what I said!
Swell:
The Science of Wind and Waves
• Swell Travel
• Why Waves Break
• Forecasting Waves
• About Dr. Lyons
Dr. Steve Lyons
The Weather Channel
As you know waves are formed by wind that blows on the sea surface. The faster the wind blows, the longer the wind blows and the greater the distance that winds blows over the water the higher the waves will get. Some will never reach one foot while others can attain heights over one hundred feet in extreme weather.
It turns out that most of the "waves" you see in the ocean and surf on at your beach are not locally wind generated waves; instead they are waves that have come from a wind source that is some distance away. This means that the most common "waves" you see at your beach are actually "swells" that have been generated within a distant wind area and have moved away from it to your location. These traveling swells that move without any aid by wind once they have formed can travel great distances. The question here is how far can ocean "swells" move across the ocean?
…this is what I said!
Waves:
The Science of Wind and Waves
• Swell Travel
• Why Waves Break
• Forecasting Waves
• About Dr. Lyons
Dr. Steve Lyons
The Weather Channel
I know you boaters, fishermen, jet skiers, wind surfers, kite surfers, surfers, boogie boarders and body surfers out there in the surf zone; what you are thinking sometimes when you gaze out into the sea; why do waves break and why do they break in such different forms? Well in the simplest ways I will explain the answers to these questions, the results could help you understand a few things you might have not known!
First of all why do waves break? This is fairly simple to explain. As waves move toward shore and into shallow water they begin to feel the ocean bottom. And in turn the ocean bottom causes friction; it slows the wave down from the speed the wave was moving in deep water. It turns out that the greatest wave slow down is in that part of the wave closest to the ocean bottom where bottom friction is greatest. The least slow down is at the air-water interface at the wave crest, farthest from the seafloor. The result is that the wave crest begins to move faster at its top than at the wave's base. Eventually this speed difference causes the wave to tip forward and the wave breaks.
…this is what I said!
Is there something you still don’t understand? Iso…
References
1.) NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Global Change Master Directory, Greenbelt , MD 20771
Your propensity to take something simple and complicate the crap out of it by "researching" …
If it’s so simple, why has virtually every post here disagreed so thoroughly with professional terminology, sources, and actions of waves and swell? We don’t get to make up our own languages if we want to communicate well.
jweaver wrote:
If you're on the river (whatever river), you'd better suppose that normal right of way rules apply. Trying to apply wave rules in the Gorge just complicates the crap out of things.
It would simplify them, at some locations, if more people were aware how many Gorge sailors support and try to use them. That’s what I’m trying to clarify.
jweaver wrote:
Why should somebody on a wave in the ocean have right of way? Go sail in front of him and find out the answer. He can't stop …
Presuming both you and I are on a similar sized non-breaking face, neither of us can easily stop completely, especially if we’re airborne. That’s why we both look before cutting back, airborne or not.
jweaver wrote:
everybody pretty much knows which direction he's going to ride the wave......ie down the line … No such prediction can reliably be applied in river sailing
You’re right, that IS a problem here, to the unobservant newcomer. The guys who play hardest in our humps quickly learn to read a new sailor to see whether he carves or cruises; once any sailor (including kiters) I’ve never seen before shows any interest in carving, I give him a LOT of room to do his thing, regardless of port or starboard. Traffic permitting, I give him room to make 2 or 3 high-g maneuvers and blow the last one, so he can have fun and I no longer have to watch him. I will almost always yield windward to any oncoming sailor on starboard or port for multiple reasons, including putting any onus to hold the line on HIM (I gave ROW up by changing course) and giving me more room to play.
jweaver wrote:
maybe you should test it by putting yourself in front of a guy doing a cutback on port tack and yell starboard at him.
If I was paying any attention at all, that guy doing ANY level of cutback has scores of yards of lateral room to do anything he wants on any tack … unless, of course, he’s in the corridor with 500 of his closest friends, in which case he hasn’t room to take a deep breath.
jweaver wrote:
Or.....more likely in this scenario, you'd be the guy claiming some kind of befuddled river wave ROW.
“Claiming”? No. But wise Gorge wave riders try to definitely and clearly indicate their propensity for departing from the N-S rut as often and as abruptly as they can. We’re not going to hit those who ignore the hints, but many of us worry less and less about their nerves if they keep cruising through the best swell on autopilot. We give other wave riders plenty of room and try not to interfere with the cruisers; I think it’s fair to expect some consideration in return.
jweaver wrote:
More likely still is the probability that anybody sailing in these relatively extreme conditions (ocean or river) has the common sense and practical skill to stay out of the way.
True in the ocean, but not so common here. It IS just a lake, and many newbies don’t think past that any better than I first did in 1984.
jweaver wrote:
For those incidents like the one that started this thread before you hijacked it, it's usually just pilot error unless somebody willfully forces a right of way issue.
Same here, but here it happens too often because of the intense mobs unaware of ANY ROW “rules”. And although I agree I diverted the venue, I’m still trying to concentrate on the ROW similarities.
jweaver wrote:
You're doing a pretty good job of mucking up the ROW issue, so in the spirit of your normal sop I suggest you go consult some authoritative sites and further illuminate us as to how seriously flawed it is not to apply wavesailing rules in the Gorge.
It’s not like this is my idea, or that this is a new concept. It’s been argued many times over the decades when it’s not blowing, and lamented very often when it was blowing.
When is the next long distance ground swell expected to hit the Gorge?
Maybe our testy contributor from the Great Northwest can eagerly comment and fill us in with the core facts and rules that might apply when the ground swell ultimately hits out in the eastern Gorge.
Also, maybe he can comment on how the ground swell and "waves" gets by the various dams before getting to eastern locales.
But you added that “The Gorge produces swell because it is constantly ebbing. And the size of the swell depends on the current, H2O released from the dams, and the wind velocity.”
The Columbia below TriCities is a series of lakes. The flow in each lake is generally under the control of the USACE, and can vary from 0 (even temporarily upriver -- flooding, not ebb -- at some locations) to several knots downriver. The best waves are often where the current is lightest simply because the other factors override the influence of the current, and the fastest current -- spring runoff at the Wall -- produces absolute crap for waves.
Dr. Lyons says, “As you know waves are formed by wind that blows on the sea surface.” Yup … and rivers, lakes, and your dog’s water bowl.
Lyons adds, “ most of the "waves" you see in the ocean and surf on at your beach are not locally wind generated waves; instead they are waves that have come from a wind source that is some distance away. This means that the most common "waves" you see at your beach are actually "swells" that have been generated within a distant wind area and have moved away from it to your location. These traveling swells that move without any aid by wind once they have formed can travel great distances.”
That answers your question: “can you explain to me why there are surfable waves when there isn’t a breath of wind?” Your coastline transformed your ocean swells into waves even in the absence of local wind.
You also said, “Iso, there are no waves in the Gorge. That’s called swell.”
Your research and mine agree that Gorge humps are called waves because they are generated by evident, local wind.
You added, “I think what you mean to say is swell is caused by a force, usually wind over a large distance called fetch. A swells period and amplitude are a derivative of the time and velocity of wind over a given fetch.”
Again, even wind-generated swell exists and continues to propagate in the absence of wind, and other forces often generate swell that propagates for hundreds or thousands of miles.
Besides, none of this pertains to ROW.
Maybe boardsportsrule4 hit closer to home when he wrote:
on a wave, there is only a finite number of places you can catch that wave, and in addion, even lesser number of places you can catch the wave and get a decent enough section to do an arieal, where as in the gorge, there are many more places one could be doing "ariel cut backs" at a given launch spot. i know there are places where the swell is generally better than others, but there are MANY places at each "advanced" gorge sailing launch site that you could get these "arial cut backs"
given that there are more "decent swells that you can do arial cutbacks on" in the gorge, at a given "advanced sailors launch spot", than at a place such as wadell, one could conclude that the ROW rules would be MUCH more important in wadell than in the gorge.
I agree, but still a matter of degree, not exclusion. It’s pretty obvious to beach-sitters and wet sailors alike that Gorge wave-riding peaks at very specific choice patches, often just an acre or two in size in the corridor and even at some spots out east (e.g, the Arlington jetty, the point break at Alderdale). While it’s not as critical on the river as it is on a confined ocean break, each sweet spot is often clearly defined by eye and by the ants swarming on it. Clueless drive-bys can sure muck things up.
Not that they have no right to be in the sweet spots, but I’m trying to impress upon them that some protocol and some appreciation for same would enhance everyone’s experience, theirs included. Their eyes sometimes get HUGE … I swear I saw one guy’s eyes merge, and one really did crash in panic and confusion … when someone dives off a lip across his bow, even at a distance of >100 feet. At least that’s not dangerous, though; what’s dangerous is the cruiser or drag racer who like to hang out in the blind spot ten feet off our lee hindquarter. He’s hamstringing us and endangering both of us.
Has windsurf season started in the Gorge yet? Just curious...
It's been very windy for weeks. The guys willing to wear booties and gloves are having a great time. We wusses are waiting for a couple more degrees of water temp ... probably next week.
Haven't you guys figured out not to feed the troll.
Have been up here in the gorge for 15 years and the obvious answer is NO THE SWELL IS NOT THE SAME.
Had a great time sailing when I lived and sailed in SO CAL. Living in Camarillo sailed C street and Leo most of the time. Can honestly say the only thing I miss is the ocean, but sailing in the gorge is good as well just different.
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